Topic: Seriously!

+ Seriously!
From	Message
VALLEY 22 Sep 04, 08:56	+ hmmmmmm...... in answer to your second question, i've always just had the thought that we will never know why God only chooses certain people, it's just one of them things we aren't meant to understand and never will in this lifetime. it can be a real confusing subject, God knows what we are going to do, cos He has already planned it, so whatever decision we make it is all in the providence of God. That's my view. Anyone else?
plebbus 22 Sep 04, 19:32	+ Quite a question. The Bible presents two views on salvation. In John 3:16, Jesus says "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Which basically challenges all to have faith. In John 6, Jesus says in verse 37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." and in verse 44 says "No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." Which basically says no one can have faith unless God the Father enables them, indeed through predestination. But it also implies that anyone who has faith is evidently chosen by the Father. This leaves the question; Why can't a person have faith unless the Father grants it to them? The answer to this lies in our sinful fallen state. As sinners we would never choose to put our faith in Christ, as Paul says in 1 Co 14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." Indeed as sinners we all deserve to go to hell. It's amazing that God would even grant us his grace and enable any of us to be saved through faith, as Eph 1:4-5 says "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will." Hmmm, I appear to have rambled! Does this make it any clearer?
skippy 25 Sep 04, 22:24	+ Yes. I still don't fully understand, but I suppose we aren't really meant to know - I think somewhere in the Bible it says something about God not revealing all things to us and keeping certain things secret... or perhaps I just made that up?
Damo 25 Sep 04, 23:12	+ There are certainly many things that out very small brains cannot understand about an infinite God. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't question or discuss and try to understand more. I often find it easier to understand if I think about it separately. If you are not a Christian then you need to know that God will always accept you if you come in faith (and so as Christians we are to proclaim the gospel to all). Once we are Christians then we thank God that he chose us and realise we have nothing to boast in. As to the fairness of God choosing some and not others there is a massive element of us not understanding how it work (esp when people are free to choose or reject God - I haven't met anyone yet who wanted to follow God but couldn't). I find it does help me to realise that no-one deserves salvation and so anyone being saved is an amazing act of love and mercy by God.
skippy 27 Sep 04, 22:31	+ Then is it entirely to do with God choosing them, and nothing at all to do with the person themself?
Damo 30 Sep 04, 21:05	+ Yes, but that doesn't mean man doesn't have responsibility or choice. This seems like a contradiction to us but that's because we don't have brains big enough.
beefman 04 Nov 04, 19:00	+ but we dont have choice if there is an all knowinig infinte omnipotent god. if god is in control, and knows what has happened and what will, then us being mere men cannot change that. free will and god cannot go together.
plebbus 06 Nov 04, 13:26	+ But that's the mystery of predestination. We have free will and so are responsible for our actions. Yet our free will will ultimately fulfil the providence of God. As I quoted above, in John 6:37, Jesus says that "...whoever comes to me I will never drive away." If we choose to put our faith in Jesus Christ, we have been chosen by God.
beefman 08 Nov 04, 19:09	+ dont you mean if christ's wants us to put our faith in him?
plebbus 08 Nov 04, 19:11	+ Nope.
beefman 08 Nov 04, 19:21	+ then god does not control us and we can hurt him
plebbus 09 Nov 04, 00:53	+ Two separate points there I think. 1. To choose to follow Christ, we need our eyes opened by God. To have our eyes opened, we need to be chosen by God. If we choose to follow Christ, God has opened our eyes. So God is in complete control, but our choices are ours. 2. God takes no pleasure in the punishment of sinners. "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" (Ezekiel 18:32), and "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Pet 3:9), but the rest of 2 Pet 3 also shows God is holy and will deal with the unrepentant sinner. And yes, God is hurt when we do not turn to him, as Lk 19:41,42 records Jesus weeping over Jerusalem because they had not realised why he had come into the world.
orange 09 Nov 04, 15:58	+ are ther degrees of haven and hell
beefman 10 Nov 04, 19:23	+ Then why doesnt he save everyone? Why only let certain people come to him? Because the only people that follow him are the ones that he allows to.
plebbus 12 Nov 04, 15:32	+ But then, given our fallen state, God's salvation is not a right, but a priviledge. As such, the question should not be "Why doesn't he save everyone?" In perspective, the question should be "Why does he save anyone at all?"
beefman 14 Nov 04, 19:29	+ either we cant get to him by our own 'freewill'.
plebbus 15 Nov 04, 00:28	+ Basically in John 6:35-40: Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
beefman 15 Nov 04, 17:42	+ but we will only go to god is he wants us to, he knows if we will or wont, and he has the power to change what we want, if he is omnipotent
plebbus 16 Nov 04, 23:22	+ I think this is becoming a circular argument, so this is my last reply to this thread. Jesus says, "whoever comes to me I will never drive away" and anyone who does will demonstrate "All that the Father gives me will come to me". None of us know who is chosen and who is not, but to an extent, that's not our concern. Our primary concern is to decide to follow Jesus or not. Any excuse presented to avoid responsiblity on our part is just that - an excuse.
beefman 17 Nov 04, 16:27	+ hehe, im right