Topic: women preachers

+ women preachers
From	Message
orange 05 Feb 04, 16:28	+ women preachers what r ur views on women preacher/pastors. i ave come acroos this problem recently an what apricte ur views
james 05 Feb 04, 16:47	+ I dont think there should be women preachers. Simple as that
Rich_Rocks 05 Feb 04, 18:23	+ Me too. Mainly because it's un-scriptual.
Damo 05 Feb 04, 23:57	+ saying 'it's scriptural' isn't enough - you've got to give the scriptures
orange 06 Feb 04, 08:07	+ yea so what r they
Jon 06 Feb 04, 12:05	+ Why don't you find them? Instead of wasting your time online.
Damo 08 Feb 04, 14:29	+ Well said Jon - personal study is by far the best way to learn However I still think Rich-Rocks should 'put his money where his mouth is' and give us some scriptures!
james 08 Feb 04, 21:32	+ Many churches today have women ministers or pastors. They believe that women have the ability and the desire and therefore should not be prohibited from ministry. But is that what the Bible teaches? If ordaining a woman to the ministry is against God’s Word, then no amount of skill or ability would make it right. It is not a question of whether women are capable. It is not a question of whether women are inferior (they are not)(debateable). It is simply a question of whether God’s Word allows it or not (it doesn’t). In I Timothy 3:1-7, God’s Word lays out the requirements for an elder. A careful study of Scripture shows that an elder is a pastor (shepherd), a bishop (overseer), and a minister. All those titles of office are used interchangeably. In those verses we are told that an overseer (an elder) must be the husband of one wife. The Greek language here is very clear. It says that the overseer must be the andra (individual male — masculine singular) of one gunaikos (woman, specially, a wife — feminine singular). There is no possibility of interpreting the language any other way. Those who advocate for women being ordained as pastors must disregard this very clear teaching of Scripture. God chooses to describe Himself as masculine. God made Adam first. God chose men to lead His people. God’s Word teaches that the husband has authority over the wife. God’s Word teaches that only males may be ordained as pastors in His church. That does not mean that women are inferior or incapable. Women are equal with men before God. Jesus died to save them too. It only means that for His own reasons, God chose to put men in positions of authority. That authority, however, is not one of “lording it over” those in submission under him. It is an authority of loving care and concern for those whom God has put in his care. It is an authority which brings with it a more severe judgment (James 3:1). If we accept all of what the Bible teaches, then we must obey God rather than men and say that women may not be pastors. They may serve faithfully, admirably, and well in many capacities in God’s church. They may have the gift of explaining God’s Word to others. They may have the gift of giving wise counsel to those in need. They may have the ability to teach the truths of God’s Word to others. They should exercise those gifts to the extent that God gives them opportunity. They must not do so with the authority of ordination because God Himself condemns such action. Second, those who claim that God has called woman to be a teacher and a preacher ignore the requirement of an “internal call” and an “external call” (which she can not have – Biblically). Some women minister have stated that they won’t argue what the words of I Corinthians 14:34, 35 and I Timothy 2:11, 12 say, but that they will “…simply give you other words from the same bible that speak clearly about women’s work in the kingdom of God.” This ignores the fact that God does not contradict Himself. If He states in one passage that an elder must be a male and states in another that a women may not teach, then, in those passages that appear to teach something contrary — i.e., Deborah and Miriam — we must struggle with what is actually being taught. Deborah was described by some as “…a skilled warrior, prophetess, counselor and a judge of Israel.” How could this great woman of God not be a teacher of men in the things of God?” What they fail to understand the in the passage was that Deborah was indeed a prophetess and a judge of Israel. however, there is NO indication that she was a “skilled warrior” or a ”counselor”. In fact, it is clear from the passage that Barak was in charge of the army, not Deborah. The case of Priscilla and Aquila is very instructive as to the relationship of women and men. Priscilla did, in fact, teach Apollo. It was not, however, in a worship context. It is important to recognize that in I Corinthians 14:34, 35, Paul is dealing with the issue in a worship context. The women were interrupting the worship to ask questions. Paul admonishes them to ask their husbands outside the worship context. I Timothy 2:11, 12 is also dealing with a worship issue (see verse 8). God has indeed “…given women the same gifts He has given to men.” But, He has restricted the use of those gifts. They may not be used in an authoritative, ordained capacity. It is not “…essential to the body of Christ that women are…allowed (and) encouraged to share the teaching or preaching gift God has bestowed upon them.” In fact, it is imperative that they NOT be allowed or encouraged to use those gifts in an ordained capacity because God has forbidden it. Finally, it is instructive to note the relationship in the Godhead. Jesus Christ was equal in power and authority and essence with the Father. Yet, He voluntarily submitted to the will of the Father. He came not to do His own will, but that of the Father. He willing submitted to a role of service, rather than usurp the power and position of the Father. In like manner, women, who are equal with men before God and have the same gifts as men, must willing submit to a role of service. They must not usurp the power and position in which God has placed the male elders of the church. They must use the gifts God has given them. They must use the gifts God has given them. They must not use them in an ordained position of authority.
james 08 Feb 04, 21:32	+ There we go. That shows that it is clearly unbiblical for women to be ministers (it is just as unbiblical to work on the sabbath (doctors etc excluded)). There we go. I speak for "the masses". Theres some biblical proof in there and a bit of logical reasoning so no need to argue over this one. As clear as a clear glass window which isn't dirty.
Sweetmadness 10 Feb 04, 18:16	+ my dad did quite a bit of preaching on Corinthians, was very helpful. talked about women covering their heads too...very interesting-havn't got to the end of it yet!
Sweetmadness 10 Feb 04, 18:16	+ nicely said James
Damo 10 Feb 04, 18:59	+ Thank you James - saves Rich_Rocks from doing it! You touched on the clearly important issue of AUTHORITY. It is the prohibition of women having authority over men that is usually sited as the reason for women not being preachers. However, what it interesting is that those who agree with women preachers often use the same arguement - they say that teaching the bible is not placing yourself in authority - since it is the scripture that has the authroity not the person explaining it (unlike being a pastor which clearly is a postition of authority) Therefore they would argue that it is ok for women to preach as long as they are not pastors or leaders. Effectively they see preaching and leading as separate entities. How would you answer this argument?
james 10 Feb 04, 19:51	+ If you are talking about bog standard (not that it should be described as that) witnessing then any Christian can do that obviously. That is, one on one witnessing or standing up for Christianity in an argument etc. But that is clearly not preaching. Not something that is organised before hand and delivered to a large group of people for their good. Preaching in Church for example has to be done by a male pastor who has been inwardly called and outwardly accepted. I would say the same goes for street preaching. Only someone authorised by the church should really do that. I mean we cant let every Christian do it because there would be some nutters who dont have a clue what they are talking about. I dont know what I am arguing here but I am trying to say that Women can be used by God but in different ways. Surely preaching and leading go hand in hand? And by the way Damo, are you just playing Devils Advocate? or do you actually agree with women preachers? I do apologise this makes little sense. Never mind....
james 10 Feb 04, 19:53	+ I could have said that God gives preachers authority to be preachers.... but we all know they just plant the seeds and the Holy Spirit does all the work in a persons heart.
Rich_Rocks 11 Feb 04, 15:25	+ I haven't been on this particular page for a while hense my lack of response: Scriptual references are as follows: 1 Timothy 2:9-14 1 Timothy 3:1-6 both are very explicit.
james 11 Feb 04, 16:47	+ 1 Timothy 2:9-14 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 1 Timothy 3:1-6 Overseers and Deacons Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. For those who dont have a bible to hand...
Sweetmadness 16 Feb 04, 20:51	+ I think there is a time when women can stand up and speak to a group of people about God, but that is when only women are present....for instance womens bible studies.Was talking about this the other day...saying how women open air preachers nearly always end up screeching and shouting instead of talking in a clear nice way. Its so horrible you can just see everyone avoiding them and to be honest I don't blame the passers by as the women are quite scary to watch! I'm not saying all women preachers do tyhis...or that no men do it. but you often find that men can carry their voices better in that way. Not really the most important points, just some extra thoughts
Rich_Rocks 17 Feb 04, 21:46	+ Women certainly have a place in evangilizing, just not in the teaching of God's word to God's people. I think women are particularily suited to Children's work and of course missionary work.
Jonny 19 Feb 04, 17:19	+ some actually argue that Phoebe (thats the right one yeh?) was a deacon- however if you look at the original language it could be that she was the wife of a deacon, and this has just been translated as "deacon"! but on another point if there are no suitable persons in the church to be a deacon (which is extremely unlikely!!!!) then i think that women might be able to be deacons, but that is only in very extreme circumstances, that will never arise neway, so it doesnt really matter! unless......... most men get wiped off the face of the earth!!! there still has to be a few though, because they have to be the pastors!!
james 19 Feb 04, 17:51	+ imagine that though Jonny. No men would mean that in 30 years or so there would be no human beings. Men are vital to the survival of our species. Also imagine the level of IQ drop if men disappeared. That would be enough to cause some problems